Cheaper to own a used car - compared a 1992 Taurus including depreciation, projected repairs and expenses (insurance and MPG) to a 1997 Ford Taurus new off the showroom floor and over the projected 5 years of the analysis the used car was $4000 +/- cheaper to drive and maintain than to buy the new one - This study was done by the company that built the cars and was trying to sell the new ones too.

Personal responsability is a real thing - Time management is really important too - how can it wrong to say that people need to make the most of thier time and that they should be held accountable and responsable for the state of affairs in thier own life?

All that being said - think about this:

Has anyone ever seen anyone change thier mind on a topic like this? I think that discussion like this can be stimulating and interesting but almost never changes anything. I am a conservative republican and will probably stay that way - liberals are liberals and believe in what they think is correct with the same vigor that I feel about my view - the rub is that when people get togethor and talk about tough issues there is never any ground made - I have never personally seen anyone say "Wow - I never thought of it like that - you are right and I am a ________ now too!" It seems that people participate in discussion like this to no end - What do you (collectively) think about that> I mean do you think that this type of discussion - politics, religion, race relations etc are ever fruitfull? If not then what do we as a people have a responsability to talk about - isn;t it these the tough subjects that we need to talk about with the people we care about? then what - it would seem that we have to talk about the toughest topics for no eventual effect.

Seems to me that it is time for a beer and a piece of cake because the economy is going to be what it is regardless of what any of us say - and all we are doing right here (while honestly professing our held views) is provoking each other
Thoughts on that?

Well, aside from some media labels and some of the staunchest hard-liners, most people don't think of themselves as "liberal" or "conservative". I sure don't, those words don't mean anything to me. Many more do not even consider themselves Democrat or Republican.

I do. I consider myself a Democrat. I'm definitely not a "liberal", as that implies that I am accepting of everything, or that I desire change. I do not. I want the tax system that existed pre-Bush to be left alone. I want the Roe v. Wade to be left alone. I want Ten Commandments placques and statues left alone. I fail to see why people get bent out of shape over gay marriages. These are all silly things that are of no major concern to me. In actuality, I probably fall more moderate than anything, but I do align with Democrats at the ballot box.

So yes, while you see yourself as a hardliner Republican, self-described conservative, most people are not like that. When we discuss which party wants to do what, those on-the-fence folks will maybe learn who they want to vote for, assuming we can get them to vote. Remember, less than one third voted in the last election. Over in Iraq, such a poor turn out would have voided the election and made them start over.

So while you and I may be polar opposites (I'm really not all that polar either, to be honest, Texas Democrats are not hard to the left like that jerk Michael Moore), I doubt too many more are.

I had actually just stopped responding to this thread, said all I could, but you asked a great question here.

Ugh...Michael Moore. LS, more Democrats should have been like you and threw him overboard. He was defintely no help and he made people on my side even more determined to vote for the Prez.

As far as the economy goes, I've been leery of laying all of it at the feet of the chief executive. It's never as simple as the president waving a magic finger and making it happen. I just try to look for opportunity whenever I can find it (Granted, it may be slow in coming).